And that's a good thing?

[fembuck]

Okay, so putting aside the fact that I lurve the Khase for a moment, I just can't understand the arugments made by Marcus/Krista shipper's as to why the relationship is so dreamy and wonderful. I can understand the people's who's argument for like Krista/Marcus is "I like bad boys and Marcus is hot and I like the dysfunctionality of it" because they're admitting the M/K relationship is screwed up and dark but they find that interesting. Marcus is a good looking guy and appeal of bad boy/girls is totally understandable (see: my undying love for Chase).


"I don't have a problem with Marcus and Krista, despite the awful things he has done to her. There are plenty of real world examples of abusive relationships or of lovers hurting one another."

Um, and that's a good thing? Just because people are in abusive relationships in real life that's no reason that it should be celebrated on tv even if the characters are vampires! I mean really. Should the show turn a pimp (cause he did whore Chase out ya'll)/dealer/abusive boyfriend into leading man? Hell to the no. That argument right there is all that needs to be said against Marcus/Krista. If you want to show how horrible Marcus is and how he should be reviled and ashed for treating Krista that way, okay, but he should not been written/presented as some swoon worthy leading man when by the M/K's shipper's own acknowledgement he's an abuser and they're in an abusive relationship

*mind boogles*

"Plus it speaks to the conflicted nature and emotions of Krista right now."

Once again, this makes him seem even more reprehensible. She's confused and vulnerable and he's exploiting that. I mean perhaps if he had turned her away two episodes ago citing that neither of them were in the right frame of mind, or that it was just the visions and bloodlust that were making her act that way, it might have at least set the stage for Marcus seeming like he actually cared about Krista instead of just wanted to bang her. But he doesn't do that, he just takes what he wants like always by exploiting the uncertainty and vulnerablity in her that he was responsible for. And that's a good thing?


"But let's be honest, Marcus and Krista have both done a lot more than have sex-which was one time. But look at all the development and things that have happened to each over the season, way before the role in the hay."

Yeah, a lot more has happened between them. Like he killed her twin brother, he had her kidnapped, strapped her down and forcibly injected her with his blood before throwing her off a building. Then once he had successfully turned her into a blood craving addict his first gift to her was to have her kill a man, and then after that he showed a complete lack of common curtesy by constantly busting in on her while she was half dressed. But he DIDN'T want to bothered helping her transition other that making long ass speeches, instead he gave that job to his assistant to do because it was boring and he didn't care as long as Chase got Krista in a bloodlust froth that would lead her to his bed. Then he sends her on missions where she might die, but doesn't really have any meaningful conversations with her. And then when she's clearly having serious problems he beats her, drugs her, forces memories upon her and sleeps with her.

Yeah, that's tons of development. Though mostly that development has been developing Marcus as as evil, selfish prick instead of developing a real relationship between him and Krista. And that evil, selfish prick development applies to his relationship with Chase as well, so it's really an all around prickitude instead of just with Krista.

"They've both changed, and their tryst will change them more."

Yep, Krista became a blood thirsty killer that was out hunting people. And Marcus ... didn't change at all. Apparently after they got busy Krista just left and he was all 'smell ya later' without asking where she was going because he had no clue where she was when Chase dropped by to see him. He might have seemed like he gave a shit if he'd asked "Is Krista back from hunting yet, I haven't seen her" but instead he had absolutely no idea what was going on.

"Krista and Marcus's revelations have shed more light on their characters and set them up to go in different directions."

Yeah, like showing us that Krista should run in the opposite direction to wherever Marcus is going if she doesn't want to continue being victimized and exploited.

Like call me silly, this argument makes me hate the ship even more instead of drawing me over to the darkside.

Comments

[fembuck.livejournal.com]

Chase and Krista as vampire lesbian Thelma & Louise? AWESOME.

I would totally watch a series about that. And it would kick ass as a subplot next season (even if they were only friends with benefits ... but there had better be benefits!)

Krista/Marcus works as long as he's the villain. The dude ruined a woman's life just because he felt like having sex with someone who looked like his dead wife. THAT'S PRETTY EVIL. And hey, if he wants to try to turn her to the Dark Side as part of his whole evil vampire pitch, okay, I can see that. But as soon as you turn it into some epic romance, like they did with Buffy/Spike in later seasons of BtVS, I go ick. It's kinda like that one soap opera where a man raped a woman and later they fell in love and got married. WTF?

Wordy, Mcword. It's like if you show it as being dark, twisted, unhealth and something that she needs to get away from, then okay. But you better stress that it's bad, and that Krista it's Krista's vampire side that it's attracted to him and not Krista herself because boyfriend killed her twin brother. But whatever you do, do. not. try. to. convince. me. that. it's. love. let. alone. true. love. Marcus only cares about Krista in relation to how she makes him feel and how she can help him etc. Marcus doesn't know Krista because he's never really talked to her or spent time around her where he wasn't making long ass pompous speeches or ordering her about.

And I'm not even going to get into the soap opera thing (it was Luke and Laura, right?) because that is just wrong on so many levels. And if it is Luke and Laura they were made into like the ultimate dreamy, lovey dovey couple and I'm sorry but that is just the worst possible message you can send.

[zoriah.livejournal.com]

Ouch, kinda wished you hadn't brought up the Spike/Buffy comparisons, but I guess it was inevitable. I'm a card carrying Spuffy, sad to say, and still love the pairing. Oh well.

Spike was Buffy's enemy and eventually reluctant ally for several seasons before they ever got remotely kissy or groiny (without some spell intervening etc). In other words they interacted and got to know each other, the good, bad and the ugly. It didn't just come out of nowhere. It was dark and disturbing but in the end they showed Spike struggling and choosing to change himself and try to be a better woobie (LOL) for the Buffster. Buffy sad to say treated him like crap and didn't really change him herself per se. And her friends didn't help much either.

In my opinion the comparisons are more fitting with Angel/Buffy. An experienced man (who was hundreds of years old and who had been a sexually active womaniser before being turned) hooks up with a sixteen year old girl. She was under age, she was overwhelmed by his charisma, his tortured soul. She was naive enough to sleep with him after only a few months. He took advantage of her because he wanted to find some kind of validation/absolution in having the Slayer forgive and love him, thus easing his guilt.

Barring the fact that it was stat rape in CA at the time, didn't anyone else find this icky? No, it was portrayed as romantic soulmate schmoopy love.
For me, I just saw this grown man, stalking a teenaged girl, watching her undress in windows, impressing her with his mature ways and broody tortured stick. Even if it was true that he fell in love with her innocence yadda yadda at first glance (lollipop anyone?), he still played her, and should have not jumped her as soon as she offered herself. Bad Angel, bad.

That's the relationship that reminds me of Karcus, more than Spuffy. But that's just me. *shrugs* Marcus also gives off that same 'you don't know my pain, daddy knows best, I'm gonna make all the decisions for you' vibes that Angel did.

[fembuck.livejournal.com]

I'll grant you that Spuffy isn't nearly as bad as Karcus because like you said they did have lots of interaction together because they got together and Spike had been a reluctant ally to her. Plus though he might have tried, he never actually killed her family members or scoobies or anything. And really because of the chip he was quite harmless (except to demons) unlike Marcus who's murdering people and experimenting on them left and right. Still I think Buffy was in a terribly vulnerable position when they hooked up, and I'd never gotten any romantic feelings from her towards Spike beforehand (though he was obviously shown to have feelings for her) and it was like she wanted to hurt and needed a distraction and he gave it to her. Not as manipulative as Karcus but not healthy either. I just thought the whole relationship tainted Buffy's character, and never really felt like she was actually in love with him so much as with him because he was there are could give her what she needed. It just ... eh, I'm gonna leave the Spuffy alone now ...

In my opinion the comparisons are more fitting with Angel/Buffy

Eh, I'll agree Angel/Buffy was sketchy at the beginning and the whole Angel stalking her from afar thing was hella creepy, but ultimately I did buy Angel/Buffy as tragic star-crossed lovers where as Spuffy just gave me the creeps. And I am in no way a Buffy/Angel fan.

But just to compare Angel and Marcus I think they are very different. Angel was tortured with guilt over his years of killing and wanted to make amends and help people. Marcus is still gleefully shooting people in the head, experimenting on people, turning innocents into vampires, whoring out his friends, slipping chicks blood roofies and a whole lot of other bad things.

Plus Buffy and Angel had tons of interaction together before sleeping together, they went out on dates, he met her friends and was a part of her day to day life, he was concerned about her and protected her, and ultimately she was the one that decided to sleep with him. He didn't coerce or trick her in anyway. Marcus took away all of Krista's family and friends, couldn't be bothered to help her through her transition instead having Chase do it, and tricked/drugged her into sleeping with him.

Now I don't think Buffy/Angel was perfect or even ideal, but I don't think it's anywhere in the league of Karcus territory. Except for when he was Angelus he never did anything to hurt Buffy, Angel's whole world was about Buffy, and then he left to make her life easier (sacrificing for her, something Marcus would never do), and when he went to L.A. his life was then dedicated to helping those in need and making the world a better place (once again something Marcus would never do).

And Spike was equally emo and 'woe is me', 'I'm loves bitch', 'I've been so wronged in the past' as Angel was. Only Angel's emo agnst was about guilt over killing hundreds possibly thousands of people, while Spike's was all. about. him. and how Dru left him, and that chick he wrote poetry for thought he was geek, and how his mother was overbearing, etc. Even with a soul Spike never seemed all that broken up over the devastation he had caused over the years. I see a lot more Spike in Marcus than I do in Angel.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I think the core difference is that while Spike got Buffy in a vulnerable position, he didn't create it. The whole Buffy gets killed and comes back happened independantly of him. He profited from it, yeah, but he didn't create the situation.

On the other hand, Marcus did two terrible things against Krista, he killed her brother and her turned her. He put her into the position, manipulated it to where she might potentially be open to him.

If he had really loved her, why not court her while she is still human, wait for her to turn into one of those vampire groupies who *want* to be turned and then turn her at her own request. Say what you will about Spike and Buffy, but I don't get the impression that either of them ever seriously considered turning Buffy into a vamp. Because I think it was understood that they loved her for what she was and turning her into a vamp would have diluted that.

Instead what he did was all "Want. Take. Have!" and if he does fall for him now that means he gets rewarded for that type of behavior.

(caveat: not that one couldn't write a compelling story from that as well. Like Marcus turning her on a whim and then developing real feelings for him. Instead all he comes off is as itching for her to finally turn full vamp [he's been going on about that since the first episode] so she'll finally stop bitching and be with him; he acts very much entitled.)

[thelana.livejournal.com]

That should have been Spike and Angel not considering to turn Buffy into a vamp.

[zoriah.livejournal.com]

I think I hate Bangel as much as you do Spuffy. For what may be very similar reasons. *chuckles* Buffy and Angel just gave me the creeps on so many levels too. I think I dislike Angel and his sense of entitlement (be it champion status or who is more guilty) as much as you dislike Spike and his different way of dealing with the hard knocks (he did choose to have a soul not have it forced upon him as a punishment, remember). But then again maybe it's a matter of preferring differing brands of whineyness. ;)

I'll drop it though, because I could write forever on the why's and wherefore's but we should be looking at the ickiness of Karcus *wink* so...

I think we can safely say that Marcus is a manipulating sod, who is using Krista as a substitute for his lost wife, and as a fuck of the month, and most likely knows about her involvement with Blade or suspects it. I am yet to be convinced that Marcus has come to know Krista in any way that would justify his being deeply and romantically in love with her.

[fembuck.livejournal.com]

I think I hate Bangel as much as you do Spuffy. For what may be very similar reasons.

LOL. Eh, I'm not gonna defend Bangel, I disliked Bangel too for a lot of the resasons you mentioned, and HATED Angel until he got his own show because he was such a whiney-ass emo pansey boy (when he wasn't Angelus). On his own show I started to like him better, but yeah that "champion" shit bugged the hell out of me, as did his angst about not being the only vampire with a soul when Spike got one.

And I liked Spike as a character, just not with Buffy as the Spuffy. Season 6 and 7, Spike interacting with pretty much everyone else was good times (esp. Andrew and I liked him with Faith as well).

But then again maybe it's a matter of preferring differing brands of whineyness. ;)

True dat, true dat ;)

we should be looking at the ickiness of Karcus *wink* so...

Exactly! Marcus is worth than both of those guys, probably both of those guys put together. And unlike with either Bangel or Spuffy there's nothing at all redeeming about the Karcus relationship. Just death, destruction and blood. And I think the smarmy bastard does know that Krista is working with Blade (or someone) and is actually playing her on that front too. Blade might actually figure into his plans, like Blade provides a distraction unknowningly while Marcus executes his real plan, and Krista is a pawn feeding Blade false information.

I am yet to be convinced that Marcus has come to know Krista in any way that would justify his being deeply and romantically in love with her.


Word. It would take a drastic change in the way Marcus interacts with her to make me think that he actually cares about her. And even if that change comes that's not to say that Krista should be with him. Just because he loves her that doesn't mean she has to love him back (and considering that she's the one that has suffered all of the negatives it's far easier for him to get over the past then it should be for her).